How do you lead a team that has no official leader? How do you please everyone while maintaining a cohesive vision? Do you become the self-appointed leader? If so, how do you earn everyone’s respect? How do you make your ideas infectious? Navigating the world of leadership and group productivity is complicated no matter what position you’re in.
Tune in to this week’s episode of The Frame of Mind Coaching™ Podcast to learn more!
P.S. Adrien (Ferne’s partner) received his PR card 4 days after the recording of this podcast, 2 days before their flight. In the end, they were able to go to France.
Read the episode's transcript here:
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What do you think about this episode? Let us know! Do you have a case or a topic that you’d like us to talk about? Reach out! Please email us:
[00:00:05] Kim Ades:
Hello, hello. My name is Kim Ades, I'm the president and founder of Frame of Mind Coaching™ and the Co-founder of The Journal That Talks Back™. Today you have just joined The Frame of Mind Coaching™ Podcast with my incredible, awesome, amazing, spectacular, phenomenal, and awesome daughter, Ferne.
[00:00:22] Ferne Kotlyar:
Wow! These descriptions just keep getting longer and longer.
[00:00:25] Kim Ades:
I know, right? I don't even have a list of all these amazing things in front of me, they just come right outta my head.
[00:00:30] Ferne Kotlyar:
[00:00:30] Kim Ades:
How are you today?
[00:00:32] Ferne Kotlyar:
Incredible. Pretty good! How are you?
[00:00:34] Kim Ades:
Good! What's up? What's new? What's happening?
[00:00:38] Ferne Kotlyar:
What's up? We are supposed to go to France for the holidays, for Christmas, I guess by the time people are hearing this, Christmas may have already passed, but we're supposed to go to France and we don't know if we're gonna be able to go, because we're waiting for Adrian's permit. Like, a physical card. He has his PR, but he is just waiting for the card.
And it was supposed to take two weeks to three months, and now it's been way over three months and we still haven't gotten it. So we don't know if we're gonna get to go, which is very upsetting, if I'm honest.
[00:01:08] Kim Ades:
Very upsetting. Is there no way that you can get like a letter that says, "Hey, the card hasn't come in, but they can travel"?
[00:01:14] Ferne Kotlyar:
Nope, unfortunately. And there's also nobody to contact, so... [Sighs] We've tried everything. We've even contacted the MP of his region. So...
[00:01:24] Kim Ades:
The MP means the Member of Parliament, for those people who are not Canadian.
[00:01:29] Ferne Kotlyar:
Ah, yes. [Chuckles]
[00:01:29] Kim Ades:
The MP. Okay, well, let's hope that it works. Let's hope that you make some progress. Let's hope you get to go. Let's hope that...
[00:01:38] Ferne Kotlyar:
[00:01:39] Kim Ades:
...you have an amazing time in Paris. What are we discussing today?
[00:01:45] Ferne Kotlyar:
So today I wanted to talk about the topic of essentially working in a group. So you have a team, like let's say, whatever team it may be. You have you and your team, and then you're coordinating with a whole bunch of other teams to run this big event.
And the question is, how do you make sure that everybody on these teams is happy and they feel like they get a say in things? How do we make it democratic while also getting things done and staying true to one vision?
[00:02:14] Kim Ades:
[00:02:14] Ferne Kotlyar:
And why I say, like "one vision" is because let's say you're spearheading this, you're very excited about it, you're kind of the self-appointed leader, let's say, and you have this vision of things, you wanna make it democratic, but you also, I think like if you have too much input, then you're afraid of losing that true vision and it gets kind of diluted and becomes something that is only mediocre.
[00:02:39] Kim Ades:
So does this relate to something you're doing?
[00:02:42] Ferne Kotlyar:
[00:02:44] Kim Ades:
[Chuckles] Okay. So, I mean, the interesting thing here is the word vision. Okay? Because you said your vision, whose vision is this?
[00:02:55] Ferne Kotlyar:
Yeah, that's-- So, it's bad to have a vision.
[00:02:58] Kim Ades:
No, it's not bad to have a vision. It's great to have a vision. But whose vision is this?
[00:03:02] Ferne Kotlyar:
[00:03:04] Kim Ades:
"Yours" meaning you, Ferne?
[00:03:06] Ferne Kotlyar:
Oh, I mean, the theoretical person we're talking about. [Chuckles]
[00:03:10] Kim Ades:
[Chuckles] Yeah. So the individual has a vision, but it's not a group vision.
[00:03:17] Ferne Kotlyar:
[00:03:18] Kim Ades:
Okay. So what we wanna do is start there because what I sense might be happening is this individual has a very specific idea of what this needs to look and be like, which is fine, but they haven't enrolled everybody else in that vision. And it may be that this person isn't particularly open to other people's visions.
[00:03:43] Ferne Kotlyar:
Okay. But I guess...
[00:03:45] Kim Ades:
[00:03:46] Ferne Kotlyar:
...multifaceted [chuckles] like, how do you-- Well, okay, so let's say you have this vision and maybe it's not a good idea to have a vision because--
[00:03:54] Kim Ades:
It is a great idea to have a vision.
[00:03:56] Ferne Kotlyar:
Well, why I say it's not a good idea is because if you have a vision, you see it in a certain way and you don't want that vision to change, you don't want that vision to be diluted. It's not that it can't change, but you don't want it to be... kind of like people have another vision and then you combine two visions and then you get two mediocre visions instead of one really strong one.
[00:04:15] Kim Ades:
[00:04:15] Ferne Kotlyar:
So that's kind of what they're afraid of. Okay, so let's say... But whether it's good or bad, I'm unsure, but how do you make progress on moving this event forward without being annoying and like constantly asking people, "Hey, what do you think about this? Hey, what do you think about--" Like, you don't wanna have to do that at every single step, so how do you make progress without making the decisions on your own?
[00:04:39] Kim Ades:
I think that there's a lot to discuss around this. The first conversation is, can anything move forward when everybody's part of the decision making process, right? So, does leadership happen through democracy? And I'm not talking politics here, I'm talking about if you're running a company, for example, is it right for the leader to constantly and always be consulting?
I think it's okay to consult and then the leader ultimately needs to make a decision to move forward. But we know who the clear leader is, we know who the clear decision maker is, we know who the person accountable, who the person accountable for that particular task or function. Right?
[00:05:24] Ferne Kotlyar:
But in this case, like, I mean, there isn't a clear-- there isn't a predetermined leader. So there are people who are stepping up and taking more responsibility, but there aren't necessarily people who, like, this is the person who's spearheading it and it's only this person and it's clear to everyone and obvious. There are some maybe competing powers.
[00:05:45] Kim Ades:
Yes. So, I think what's important is you asked the question and you said, is it bad to have a vision? I think it's great to have a vision. I think it's also important to have a vision that you are not necessarily a hundred thousand percent attached to in this case. Not in all cases. In this case. And what you really wanna do is you wanna be committed to the essence of the experience or the essence of the event as opposed to the specifics.
Just like that applies to anything we do. Sometimes we have a vision of how a party's supposed to work out, and if the food isn't perfect or the drinks aren't perfect or the decorations aren't perfect, we feel like it's a flop and we're missing the point, we're missing the essence, which is together a bunch of people together to have a good time or whatever the reason that you're gathering everybody together, we're missing the point.
And so I think it's very important for you to decide what the essence is, and then bring your vision to the table and enroll people in your vision. "Here's what I see". But I think it's also important for you in this case, to be open to collaboration and including other people's ideas into this vision.
[00:07:00] Ferne Kotlyar:
Okay, but what if they have bad ideas?
[00:07:05] Kim Ades:
[Laughs] What if they have bad ideas? Well, is any idea a bad idea? No. Okay, so--
[00:07:10] Ferne Kotlyar:
Well, some of them, yeah.
[00:07:11] Kim Ades:
Okay. So what if they have a bad idea? What you wanna do is say, "Hey, here's the risk of this decision. Here's what might go wrong if we choose this course of action", or "here's what I'm concerned about. Have we taken into account X, Y, or Z?" Or "if our global goal is this, if this is our intent... If this is the essence of what we're trying to"--
[00:07:38] Ferne Kotlyar:
But that's something that also has to be agreed upon.
[00:07:41] Kim Ades:
Yes, it does. It does. But that's how you get people on the same page, that's how you're not running away with it and getting people upset 'cause you're taking over. Right? You need everybody on board, but it doesn't mean everybody has to do the work, doesn't mean everybody has to do the job.
So once you have everybody on board and you know, sure every person might have a bad idea or a good idea, so you need to be open to both. And it's important for you to be open to the good ideas too, that come along.
And if there is a bad idea, what you wanna do is say, "Hey, this is something that might happen as a result of this idea". Right? So we wanna just handle each idea as it comes along, as though it's not something that's an affront to us, it's not an offense to us. We don't need to get agitated over somebody else's bad idea, we need to deal with it as a fact, as a point, right?
So let's take an example. If the idea is, "hey, we're gonna charge everybody... –I don't know, I'm pulling a number out of my hat–, $25 for this event", and you think, "well, actually we should charge a little bit more", right? That's the idea.
You might say, okay, well let's look at what does $25 buy us. We know that the cost of this and this, and this is gonna be $40. So what do we do with this other $15? Is there something we wanna let go of? So you're dealing with it in facts. You're coming to the table equipped.
[00:09:20] Ferne Kotlyar:
Okay, but let's say it's something that's not fact-based, like a theme for an event. Like, someone chooses, underwater, I don't know, something super lame, and you're like, well, that's just a lame, I don't have a--
[00:09:31] Kim Ades:
[00:09:32] Ferne Kotlyar:
Legitimate reason why it's a bad idea, but it's a bad idea. You know? [Chuckles]
[00:09:35] Kim Ades:
You just don't like it.
[00:09:36] Ferne Kotlyar:
[00:09:37] Kim Ades:
Yeah, well that's something you're gonna have to roll with, right? So you're not gonna like everybody else's ideas, people will join together and say, "yes, we all like this idea". And so part of collaboration is to be okay with some of the decisions that aren't yours, and support the decisions that the group has made.
[00:10:00] Ferne Kotlyar:
[00:10:00] Kim Ades:
[00:10:01] Ferne Kotlyar:
So, now we've tackled how to kind of get people on board, how to talk to the team. But let's say you come to a consensus about the overall goal of your event.
[00:10:13] Kim Ades:
[00:10:13] Ferne Kotlyar:
How do you proceed to make decisions? Like, how do you choose a DJ or whatever?
[00:10:21] Kim Ades:
You go like this, "okay, so there are 10 things we need to do. We need to find a DJ, we need to get balloon decorations, we need to get food, we need to get a bar license", I don't know--
[00:10:30] Ferne Kotlyar:
And you just delegate.
[00:10:31] Kim Ades:
...And you delegate, and then you say "let's meet again. Okay, I found three DJs. This is the one I like best, this is why. Any objections?"
[00:10:43] Ferne Kotlyar:
So you delegate and then come back with everybody's information?
[00:10:47] Kim Ades:
[00:10:49] Ferne Kotlyar:
[00:10:50] Kim Ades:
And let the person who's doing the research in that area make a recommendation.
[00:10:55] Ferne Kotlyar:
Yeah. I also don't.
[00:10:57] Kim Ades:
If there's a reason why it's not a good idea, then you say, "well, what about this?" Maybe there's a better solution if that solution isn't ideal. But the best teams trust their team members.
[00:11:10] Ferne Kotlyar:
Yeah, but what if they're new people that you've never worked with?
[00:11:13] Kim Ades:
Doesn't matter. You have to start somewhere, right?
[00:11:15] Ferne Kotlyar:
So you just trust them off the bat.
[00:11:17] Kim Ades:
You trust that they'll come back, they'll bring the information you need and you'll together-- or they'll make a recommendation, and together you'll make a decision. But timeframes, timelines, expectations, all of that.
[00:11:31] Ferne Kotlyar:
[00:11:31] Kim Ades:
You see, part of the problem is you've already decided that their ideas are gonna be lame.
[00:11:37] Ferne Kotlyar:
[00:11:38] Kim Ades:
[00:11:39] Ferne Kotlyar:
I'm just giving you an example of a lame idea. Somebody came up with a really good idea.
[00:11:43] Kim Ades:
Okay, great. So what we wanna do is trust that these people will, by and large, come up with good things and sometimes not.
[00:11:53] Ferne Kotlyar:
Okay. But now, so let's say, we tackled all these questions. Now, let's say you're dealing-- So you have your team and you're like the representative from your team, and then you're also trying to organize all the other teams. So how do you deal with these two different groups that may have competing ideas?
[00:12:07] Kim Ades:
You say, "we need a chair for this event. I'm happy to chair".
[00:12:11] Ferne Kotlyar:
No, but I'm saying-- Let's say, for example, you agreed with your team that this was the best idea. Everyone's on board, on the same page, we agree. How do you take that idea and say, "well, we already made this decision". How do you impose that on everybody else if your team has already decided? Like, as a collective, you know, 10 people--
[00:12:29] Kim Ades:
You can't. You don't, you don't impose anything.
[00:12:31] Ferne Kotlyar:
So there's the question is like, how do you move things forward if you're dealing with two different sets of people that aren't--
[00:12:37] Kim Ades:
[00:12:38] Ferne Kotlyar:
Like, you're the third party, you know? You're the one communicating between these two groups. How do you make a decision with one group and not the other? Like, how do you--
[00:12:48] Kim Ades:
Your team has come together and said, "we feel comfortable with you representing us, and here are some of the things we'd like to see happen at this event". But now-- and you've enrolled them in your vision, let's say.
[00:13:02] Ferne Kotlyar:
[00:13:03] Kim Ades:
But now you have to do the same thing with the new group. The same.
[00:13:07] Ferne Kotlyar:
And if they don't agree?
[00:13:09] Kim Ades:
You'll come up with a new solution. Just like--
[00:13:11] Ferne Kotlyar:
And then you have to bring it back to your group, and then--
[00:13:14] Kim Ades:
But if your group empowered you to represent them, you're good to go.
[00:13:19] Ferne Kotlyar:
And if it was self-appointed?
[00:13:22] Kim Ades:
Then you wanna check with them and say, "is it okay if I'm the representative?" Get their okay.
[00:13:30] Ferne Kotlyar:
Well-- But it's also a matter of stepping up. Like...
[00:13:33] Kim Ades:
Yes! I step up. "I stepped up. I'd love to do this. Is everybody-- Any objections? Does anyone have any issue with it?" And knowing your team, they'll probably say "No! Ferne, you're amazing. Go for it!"
[00:13:49] Ferne Kotlyar:
[00:13:50] Kim Ades:
Right? So that's it. Make sure that they're all okay with it. Get their support, get their backup.
[00:13:56] Ferne Kotlyar:
Okay. And another question, is there any discussions, like, let's say, you're gonna have something in mind, are there some things you should just run with and not discuss? Like, some things that just don't need to be discussed?
[00:14:09] Kim Ades:
Of course, some things don't need to be discussed.
[00:14:12] Ferne Kotlyar:
Like what? Like, do I need to go and make a vote for who should represent? Like, if this is already in progress.
[00:14:17] Kim Ades:
You don't need a vote, you just ask your--
[00:14:20] Ferne Kotlyar:
But that's what I'm asking is do I need to ask if it's already kind of happened?
[00:14:24] Kim Ades:
Well, if if they trust you, then that's fine. Move along.
[00:14:28] Ferne Kotlyar:
Well, that's a question. How do you know when to move along and when to throw a vote up for something? Like, for example--
[00:14:33] Kim Ades:
Because if you suspect that there's gonna be some kind of dissension, if there's gonna be some kind of backlash, if someone's gonna say, "Hey, who said you get to make all the decisions"--
[00:14:43] Ferne Kotlyar:
But you're not making all the decisions, that's the whole point.
[00:14:45] Kim Ades:
No, but if someone says, "who says you get to represent us"...
[00:14:50] Ferne Kotlyar:
[Quietly] No one's gonna say that.
[00:14:51] Kim Ades:
Okay, so then you move along.
[00:14:54] Ferne Kotlyar:
Well, like, okay, for example, there's a given name for the event. So like, everyone agreed-- or we've been using this name and some people have suggested other names, but we've kind of just gone with this name. Do you put a poll together or do you just go with it because you're happy with it?
[00:15:11] Kim Ades:
If it's already been accepted, then it's already been accepted.
[00:15:15] Ferne Kotlyar:
[00:15:15] Kim Ades:
If somebody says, "I don't like the name" then you put a poll together.
[00:15:20] Ferne Kotlyar:
Or do you just kind of like let it roll and then keep going?
[00:15:24] Kim Ades:
No, I mean, if someone makes a strong objection, then you address it. If nobody's making a strong objection, then continue.
[00:15:33] Ferne Kotlyar:
[00:15:34] Kim Ades:
Part of the process of working with groups is to be easy and to be unattached to specific... you know, the logistics, and instead be attached to the essence of what it is that you're trying to accomplish.
[00:15:49] Ferne Kotlyar:
But I guess why I suggest this is because if you have this vision that you claim to be a good thing, how do you stick to the vision and not care about the details?
[00:15:59] Kim Ades:
I don't think sticking to the vision is the goal, I think--
[00:16:02] Ferne Kotlyar:
But maybe not in this case, but I'm saying in general, you said having a vision is a good thing.
[00:16:07] Kim Ades:
Yeah. Okay. I'll give you another example. Totally different example. Okay? Totally, completely. Let's say you are a university student-- let's say you're a high school student and your vision is to get married and have three kids. Let's say that's your vision. You've had this vision ever since you were a kid. That's your vision. That's your vision. That's your vision. You end up getting married and discover that, technically speaking, you can't have kids. So now what?
[00:16:35] Ferne Kotlyar:
[00:16:37] Kim Ades:
Well, you go back to the essence of your vision, which is "I wanna have a family". So, does that mean you have to give birth in order to have a family? Not necessarily. So, it's good to have a vision, but it's also important to understand the essence of this vision and go after the essence as opposed to the specifics.
And so my advice to you is don't hold so tightly onto the specifics of the vision, 'cause for you and for anybody that creates agitation when things don't go perfectly according to the plan, because life doesn't work that way, doesn't go perfectly according to plan.
And so, we're talking about an event, but we're not. We're talking about a much larger view of life, we're talking about an approach that says, "I don't have to be so attached to the specifics". So for example, Christmas is on the 25th, but not everybody is always available on the 25th. People work in hospitals, they're not available on the 25th.
Is it okay to have Christmas on the 27th? That's a departure from the vision. That's a departure from the plan. But are you okay to do that? And so this flexibility with the maintenance on the essence is really what I'm encouraging here.
[00:18:01] Ferne Kotlyar:
[00:18:01] Kim Ades:
[00:18:03] Ferne Kotlyar:
I think so.
[00:18:03] Kim Ades:
And that applies to the event, it applies to life matters, it applies to the way that you function at home. It applies to everything.
[00:18:15] Ferne Kotlyar:
[00:18:16] Kim Ades:
Right? And I know that you're looking at something very, very specific, and that's exactly the point is let's not be so specific.
[00:18:25] Ferne Kotlyar:
Yeah, I guess. It's just, you know, if you have, for example, a Mad Hatter themed party and someone wants to throw in like reggae music or I don't know, whatever--
[00:18:34] Kim Ades:
Then it's funny and fun. Who cares?
[00:18:36] Ferne Kotlyar:
No, but that's the whole point! Is that it doesn't stay true to what you want, and that's the issue.
[00:18:44] Kim Ades:
And what would be so bad with it? Again, is the essence the Mad Hatter party? Or is it the essence people having a good time?
[00:18:51] Ferne Kotlyar:
No, but you wanna be consistent.
[00:18:53] Kim Ades:
But if you're not, you--
[00:18:56] Ferne Kotlyar:
But that, like-- Okay, let's say you wanna have a Mad Hatter party and every single detail isn't Mad Hatter, then you're like, "well, now the whole point of it is ruined". Like, it's not consistent.
[00:19:07] Kim Ades:
[00:19:07] Ferne Kotlyar:
Well for you, because that's the whole point of it!
[00:19:09] Kim Ades:
Because you're attached.
[00:19:10] Ferne Kotlyar:
Okay, let's say you wanna have a cafe that's Mad Hatter themed. Like, the whole point of having this cafe that's Mad Hatter themed is that people come for the theme. And so everything needs to be consistent in order to get clientele. Like, yeah, okay, you can serve them mediocre coffee, but that's not the point.
The point is that they come for this theme, they come for the ambience, they come for the decor, they come for all these pieces that fit together. And if somebody wants to throw off one of the pieces, that kind of destroys the point, and that is what I'm trying to get at.
[00:19:40] Kim Ades:
Well, it depends on what is the point. Is the point that one thing is off or is the point is that when people come to your Mad Hatter cafe that they love the experience?
[00:19:51] Ferne Kotlyar:
Well, how can they love the experience if it's inconsistent and delved out and diluted?
[00:19:56] Kim Ades:
[00:19:56] Ferne Kotlyar:
And it's not like, then it's not a full experience, it's only a half experience and then it's not fun.
[00:20:02] Kim Ades:
And in the case of the Mad Hatter cafe, when it's your cafe and you get to make all the decisions, then you can be as consistent as you want. And sometimes when you work in a whole team, you have to decide what are the really, really important elements.
Is it that consistency? Is that the essence? Is it to be immersed in the Mad Hatter world? Or is it something else? And once you agree on that essence, the point, the goal, the purpose, then you'll make decisions that align with that purpose. But that's the thing you need to agree on.
[00:20:40] Ferne Kotlyar:
So first things first, set the goal and figure out what's important.
[00:20:45] Kim Ades:
Exactly. And everybody needs to agree.
[00:20:50] Ferne Kotlyar:
Good luck with that one.
[00:20:53] Kim Ades:
[Laughs] Hey, come on. I'll give you another example, okay? Frame of Mind Coaching™. My goal could be a certain revenue number, or my goal could be impacting a certain-- as many lives as possible, right? They're not always consistent.
[00:21:07] Ferne Kotlyar:
[00:21:07] Kim Ades:
So my goal is this. My goal is--
[00:21:09] Ferne Kotlyar:
Yeah, but your goal isn't just one thing. Your goal is both. Because if your goal was to impact as many people as possible, then you wouldn't be a functioning company. Like, you would just give away everything for free and then--
[00:21:18] Kim Ades:
Not necessarily. No, because if I gave everything away for free, would people think that it has value? No. So that's--
[00:21:25] Ferne Kotlyar:
But you would reduce the price. Or like, there are things that don't necessarily match.
[00:21:31] Kim Ades:
Well, but I can keep my eye on impact a lot more than I can on a specific revenue number and feel bad if I didn't hit that specific, specific number that I'm after.
[00:21:47] Ferne Kotlyar:
[00:21:48] Kim Ades:
Right? So you have to decide what's the primary goal, what's the purpose?
[00:21:56] Ferne Kotlyar:
Okay. Thank you.
[00:21:58] Kim Ades:
Okay? Did it actually help?
[00:22:01] Ferne Kotlyar:
We'll see in a few weeks.
[00:22:03] Kim Ades:
All right, you'll report back. We'll ask you.
[00:22:05] Ferne Kotlyar:
Okay, sounds good.
[00:22:06] Kim Ades:
Okay, good. All right, so for those of you who are listening and you're working in a team, and sometimes you have conflicting points of view or conflicting visions, it's really important for you to come together and ask everybody and get on the same page about what is the goal, what's the purpose? What's the essence? What is the essence of what we are trying to achieve?
Once that becomes clear, the rest falls into place. But when we get caught up with the details before agreeing on the essence, we get lost in the process, and that's a real easy way to create friction and tension with others.
[00:22:45] Ferne Kotlyar:
[00:22:46] Kim Ades:
It's the same case in a home with two people who are living together and deciding who gets to do the dishes.
[00:22:53] Ferne Kotlyar:
[00:22:53] Kim Ades:
It's the same thing.
[00:22:54] Ferne Kotlyar:
Who gets to do the dishes?
[00:22:56] Kim Ades:
Who gets to do the dishes. It's the same thing. So think about: what is my goal? What is the essence of what I'm trying to achieve? All right, good. Ferne, how do people reach you and how do they take that survey? What's the best way?
[00:23:09] Ferne Kotlyar:
Please, email me! So my email is Fernekotlyar@live.com. And the survey will be provided in the footnotes, so please fill that out. We would love to know what you wanna hear more of, what you like, what you didn't like. We'd even just love to know that you're listening because we don't know, a lot of the people probably surprised, so please fill it out. I think it's anonymous, so you can let us know, you cannot let us know, but please do fill it out.
[00:23:35] Kim Ades:
And I can be reached at Kim@frameofmindcoaching.com. If there's anything going on in your life that you would like to discuss, I would be happy, happy to discuss it with you, so reach out.
We have all kinds of cool things coming down the pike for the new year, so please keep reading our newsletters. Please keep tuning in. We love having you in our world. So, thank you for tuning in over and over again. And we will see you next week. Have a good one everyone.
[00:24:03] Ferne Kotlyar:
[00:24:04] Kim Ades: